Results - June 7

Street Touring Class
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Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:05 pm

Re: Results - June 7

Postby 5centSi » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:10 pm

SkinnyG wrote:Ok, I went through the 2015 SCCA rulebook for "Street" category, and looked specifically on shocks and rear sway bars.

Have you read through the rulebook yet?

Your fears on shocks bumping you out of "Street" are unfounded. There should be no problem meeting the requirements of Street category with a set of even "custom made" shocks. The specific details of what has to be (geometry and external adjustment, for example) are spelled out.

The "Street" rules for sway bars are very clearly spelled out. You can do almost whatever you want for ONE sway bar. Interestingly (new to me) is that you can use ANY type of bushing material - I would look at getting really creative with this one.

The "Street" rules for tires are very specifically spelled out. You'd want to research to find out what is the grippiest, and if you want to win I'd even pay to have them shaved right from the get-go (But I'm too cheap for that).

My opinion or Brain's opinion do not matter a greasy fat patootie. Only the rule book (and its loopholes, if any) matters. It should be easy to build a "Street" class car, since the rules are very clearly spelled out, and only if it says you can do it can you do it. How far down the road of perfection you want to go depends on you and your wallet (are you going to make sure every original part is 100% awesome all the time just for that 0.01s benefit - if any?).

Since it's these three items that are going to make the biggest improvement, I would try to maximize these three. Koni Orange used to be internally adjustable (last time I installed some) - you don't want those. Koni Yellow if you are serious. If you can't find a set for your car, you find an insert that meets the rules, and have your housings modified or new ones built to meet the letter of the law. Ohlins or Penske if you want to win (assuming you have ~the~ winning chassis to start with).

If you cannot find a decent enough rear sway bar, one can be fabricated.

Study the rules.

Rules stifle my creativity.

Some background: Myself and two other guys re-wrote the CACC solo II rule book a few years back (2001) - these rules became the CNAC rules for many years, until they finally adopted SCCA classing and rules.

Thanks for your input. I read some of the 'Preliminary' Street Rules late 2014 and because they weren't being strictly applied for 2015, at least around here, I haven't made a big effort to read the newer rules for Street Class/Category because 1) as I recently posted today I'm not as mechanical as you or other drivers, just being honest. 2) I've had one heck of an ugly year, 3) I'm asking simple questions because of the two comments I noted above for some help from conrads, 4) if you look at the fabrication for front Si Civic Koni Sport Yellow at RedShift Motor Sports ... gLabor.htm
there's cutting involved, so to me that seems like I'm no longer 'Street Legal' and out of Street Category, and 5) that's why I've been asking the question but nobody seems at least on this Forum has an answer for me. So I suppose I'll search and try to find out elswhere.

Again, I always appreciate any input co-racers have.

And thanks Brain for the link.

Da Brains of da operation
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Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:37 pm

Re: Results - June 7

Postby Brain » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:27 pm

We've been running SCCA rules pretty much as they are written. I think the only differences being the street tire pax and we never ran the RT classes when they existed (because RT classes stock cars on street tires - the same thing our street tire pax does).

I'll copy and paste the shock rules below. They are long winded and technical, but the short version is you can NOT change springs or alter ride height, but shocks are basically open (as long as they bolt in and you aren't changing suspension geometry). The Redshift shocks are legal and if you're looking for info then that's a good place to start. The guy is an autocrosser and I'm pretty sure he even raced your car for awhile. Or maybe try the Honda forums. We'll try to help where we can, but sometimes you need to go to people that have an intimate knowledge of a specific car.

A. The make of shock absorbers, struts, and strut housings may be substituted
providing that the number, type (e.g., tube, lever, etc.), system
of attachment and attachment points are not altered, except as noted
below. The interchange of gas and hydraulic shocks absorbers is permitted.
The following restrictions apply:
1. No more than 2 separate external shock damping adjustment controls
are allowed. This permits the use of shocks which originally
came with more than two external adjustments, which have been
converted to double-adjustables, only if the additional adjustment
controls have been permanently disabled (e.g., via welding, epoxying,
grinding off). Gas pressure adjustment is not considered a
damping adjustment.
2. Suspension geometry and alignment capability, not including ride
height, may not be altered by the substitution of alternate shock absorbers.
Aftermarket strut housings are allowed provided that they
meet the Street category shock requirements defined herein (i.e.,
that no suspension geometry changes result). This includes the position
of the steering arm attachment point in the case of struts with
integrated steering arms.
3. Adjustable spring perches are allowed, but the spring loadbearing
surface must be in the same location relative to the hub as on the
standard part. Shims may be used to achieve compliance.
4. The fully extended length must be within ±1” (±25.4 mm) of the dimension
of the standard part.
5. Electronically controlled shocks may not be used on vehicles not
originally equipped with such units. Vehicles originally equipped
with electronically controlled shocks may use the standard parts or
non-electronically controlled alternative shocks subject to all the requirements
of Section 13.5. Non-standard electronically-controlled
shocks are not allowed.
B. The mounting hardware shall be of the original type. The use of any
shock absorber bushing material, including metal, is permitted. Pressed
or bonded bushings may be removed from standard parts to facilitate
the use of alternate bushings which fit in the original location without
alterations to the part. This does not permit the use of an offset shock
bushing. A shock absorber bushing may be implemented as a spherical
bearing. The bushing attaching the end of a strut to the body or frame
on a strut type suspension is a suspension bushing, not a shock bushing.
For cars with a bayonet/shaft-type upper shock mount, this allowance
permits the removal of the shock bushing from the upper mounting
plate (e.g., drilling, cutting, burning out the bushing) and replacing it
with another bushing. This also includes shock bushings located in control
arms, etc. This does not allow other modifications to the plate itself
or use of an alternate plate.
C. To facilitate the installation of commonly available aftermarket shock
absorbers, struts, or strut inserts whose shaft size is larger than the
center hole of an upper shock mount assembly, that hole may be enlarged
by the minimum necessary to accommodate the shock shaft size,
provided the following restrictions are met:
(1) the enlarged hole must remain concentric with the original configuration;
(2) the enlargement of the hole does not require modification of a bearing
(as opposed to a washer, sleeve, or plate);
(3) neither the hole enlargement nor the location of the shock shaft
changes any alignment parameter. Provided these constraints are
met, this permits enlarging of the center hole in an upper shock
mount with an integrated rubber bushing, where the bushing is integral
to the mount and bonded to the plate and the mount is provided
by the OEM as an assembly. This includes drilling out and/or
removal of the metal sleeve.
D. A suspension bump stop is considered to be performing the function
of a spring. Therefore, the compressed length of the shock at the initial
point of contact with the bump stop may not be increased from the
standard part, although the bump stop may be shortened for the purpose
of installing non-standard shocks. Bump stops installed externally
and concentric with the shaft of a shock may be drilled out to fit a larger
diameter shock shaft. Bump stops may be substituted for the purposes
of installing non-standard shocks.
E. A hole may be added through the bodywork to route the reservoir and
hose to a remote mounting location. Such holes may serve no other purpose.
F. A hole may be added to interior body panels, the engine compartment,
the trunk, and/or a strut bar to provide access to the adjustment mechanism
on a shock absorber. The hole may serve no other purpose and
may not be added through the exterior body panels.

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Street Modified
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Re: Results - June 7

Postby See23 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:50 pm

Hey Vince. I think you may overestimate the knowledge of the average autocrosser and sell yourself short. Brain is actually an anomaly in autocross and probably the entire human population.
You may have noticed that I don't offer much input on the technical stuff but will try to give some input on technique that works for me.
FYI I have to look up words like "technique" before I even use them.
As far as my technical knowledge (two more big words) goes, I learn what I need to when I need to as it applies to the car I'm driving at the time (I know, I know) and then I drive as fast as I can.
I get a lot of help from many sources (Brain include) for set up and then I forget it after until the next time/car and then have to relearn it all over again, and I don't even smoke the funny stuff!
Just be careful you don't run out of, ummmm "reasons" or you may have to take yourself down a rung or two on your climb up the elusive alien ladder. :shock:

I'm no slouch in the "reason" department either.
Kicked out of the club for speaking out. Fair?